LMAF interviews peek into the lives and minds of some of the most compelling figures in the legal industry. Interviewees answer three questions from each of three categories—savvy, salty, and personal—to reveal unique insights and talents driving our field.
Platform
25-year marketing leader. Am Law 200 CMO. Legal Marketing Association International Past President. Master of Business Administration. Award-winning LGBTQ+ executive. Actor. Singer. Published author. Arts advocate. Cabaret enthusiast.
Yeah, that’s right. All that and he digs his drag.
No substantive conversation with Roy Sexton follows a straight line. That was as true in this interview as any other interaction. The transcript has been edited for length and clarity, while preserving—we hope—the essence of Roy. See for yourselves.
Savvy
What should law firms or legal marketers steal from another industry and put to work in our industry? Partly because I came from healthcare before legal, first and foremost, think like a consumer. If you find a bit of marketing is working on you, whether it's for a movie or a pair of shoes, reverse engineer that. What is it about the creative that appealed to you? What is it about the call to action that appealed to you?
I'm a nerd. I look at Disney. I look at Apple. I look at these really high end, consumer marketing approaches and say “What can I borrow?” from the way they create a sense of community, a sense of culture that you want to be part of.
But then, look at any industry that sells people, experience. Look at the Deloittes. Look at the EYs. They're always way far ahead of all the rest of us, and their business model is very comparable. I worked at Deloitte, so I know from being on the inside. See how they leverage thought leadership in the context of a brand. You get a sense of who they are, what they work like, who they engage with in their communities. They put out such incredibly insightful and proactive thought leadership, coupled with this very dynamic brand.
Study that. Let it marinate and sink into your DNA. And then think about the environment you're in. Don't overwhelm audiences with all the ideas you're pulling from these places, but introduce them when the moment seems right to do so.
What's the best advice you've ever received?
There are two. My mother always said, “Tell people what they mean to you in the moment when it will mean something to them.” I try to live by that, and not in a fawning way, not in a cloying way. Life is too short, and people wait to give. I've seen this before. Don't give people their flowers when they're dead, you know. Let's tell people when they're alive.
The other is very specific to career movement. I was at a small firm earlier in my legal marketing career. When I got recruited by Clark Hill, it was a big jump. Clark Hill had 20, 25 offices and 500 lawyers at the time. It felt like a big leap and I wasn’t sure I was ready for it. I called Heather Morse, who was always very candid with me, and I said, “I don't know what to do.”
She said, “You need to have that BigLaw experience at least once to get to that next level of your career.” And she was right.
I had two therapists going the first couple years at Clark Hill. It was overwhelming in a good way, but I grew and have grown. I don't think I would have gotten to be the LMA President if I hadn't worked at Clark Hill. I wouldn't have the chops that I have now. So that bit of advice unlocked all that other opportunity for me.
I thought, “I'm nearly 50 years old, and I'm going to be a senior manager?” That's what I was hung up on.
Also, at that point I had been a Director of Marketing. I'd been a VP of Marketing outside of legal. And I was going to be hired as a Senior Manager of Marketing at Clark Hill. I thought, “I'm nearly 50 years old, and I'm going to be a senior manager?” That's what I was hung up on. Heather said, “Do not worry about the titles. They will come.” And she was right about that. What you need is to think about the platform and the exposure. You feel like you're taking a step back. But what's the size of the organization? What are your responsibilities? Don't let the title throw you off.
So in addition to two therapists at a time, or at least at certain times, what tools of the trade do you rely on in your workday? Good conversations with friends. I learn about myself through conversation, I refine my ability to be coherent. Not concise, but coherent!
Beyond that, I'm a bit of a menace on social media. It has served me very well. I remember in 2009 when I was in healthcare there was a colleague who taught me so much. She goes, “Oh, you should look at this Facebook thing.” I go, “I have no interest in social media. I don't want to do this at all. No, thank you.” And then I got into it, and I was like “Oh!”
I’m an introvert. No one believes it. I worked with an executive coach who did the testing and she said, “You're an introvert. You get your energy being by yourself. Is that true?” And I go, “I'm an only child. Yeah.” And social media is a great place for introverts to find their voice. Explore their own brand. Connect with people without being overwhelmed in the room.
Also, it's asynchronous communication on scale. I can reach thousands of people with a post, or simply by commenting and connecting with what other people are doing, which is even more powerful than putting your own content out there.
So for the last 15 or 16 years, I've continued to grow an audience on social media, and that's a tool that has served me well, both personally and professionally. It's created awareness of me, and who I am. It's allowed me to shine a light on other people.
And quite frankly, it served me well in the organizations I've been a part of because I'm exploring it for myself. So when I turn to the organization, I know how to build their audience. I know how to get their attorneys to feel comfortable with it, because they see what I'm doing with it, and they realize there's no harm in putting yourself out there. The risk isn't as great as people think it is. So that's a tool that I will use until it's plied from my cold, dead hands.
Salty
What do you wish lawyers would stop asking for, and why? Sponsorships that do nothing but placate somebody's ego, or that they think get them grace with somebody they're trying to win favor around. I understand why you spend money on sponsorships, but it always feels like you might as well light your money on fire in the street.
If I wanted that money to buy a piece of technology, I would have to jump through a thousand hoops. But because somebody who may or may not be giving us business says, “Could you sponsor this event?,” lawyers are like, it's the most important thing in the world. And “Why can't we do this?” And “Let's do this now!”
But if we're going to do it, do two things: 1) How much money are you getting from that person? Have you looked at that? And often they haven't, because they'll want a sponsorship that's far greater than the actual revenue that's being brought in from that client. And also, 2) give us enough time to make the most of it! Because often marketing is told at the 11th hour and we can barely get an ad together which nobody cares about. And then, if there's a table, no one actually wants to go to the event.
The other thing I'd say is stop doing social events for social events’ sake. I don't know if attorneys didn't have birthday parties as children, or what. But they will want to have golf outings and things that just feel like boondoggles. And if you try to ask “What's our strategy? Who are we inviting? Why are we inviting them? How are we engaging with them?,” they don't want you to get involved with that. They just want you to make it a fun event. “We want it to be the best holiday party ever.”
Now, I'm often the one standing at the bridge table with all the name tags, and I see the clients come in and lean over to their significant other and say, “Don't worry. We don't have to stay long.”
Clients don't want to come to your office for wine in a plastic cup. They want you to understand their business and take the time to develop a meaningful relationship.
Clients don't want to come to your office for wine in a plastic cup. They want you to come to their office. They want you to understand their business and take the time to develop a meaningful relationship, which feels difficult.
So I think that's why people fall into this trap of, “We had a big party, and our clients just loved it.” Well, of course they told you they loved it because they're going to be polite. They don't want to go to that stuff, especially post pandemic. I'm not anti-event. But have a strategy, and do something that's a value-add. Not just, you know, “Here's a cheese ball and a cheap drink.”
What's the worst advice you've ever received? I have been told with some regularity that I'm too much, there's too much of me out there. That I should be less visible. That some are threatened by my presence online. And then I'll also hear, “Oh, it's so great that you're out there.” And I'm like, well, which is it?
There's a value to the brands I support in putting myself out there. People gain awareness of my organization and the boards I'm on, and things of that nature, because I'm putting this stuff out there, and they feel like they know me. They feel like they have access to me. And so when the advice comes, because someone in an inner circle is threatened by the fact that I'm not a lawyer, and I have a bigger following than they do, I feel like that's misplaced, and you're telling a marketer you need to be less of a marketer. It's the antithesis of what you're investing in.
And I might add not to be triggered by a gay man of a certain age who's finally comfortable being this visible. Don't tell me to be less visible and then post something about how inclusive your environment is.
What's your favorite guilty pleasure?
There are three. 1) Terrible cheap candy, like circus peanuts. And, like Hostess Donettes and terrible processed food that you get in a gas station. 2) Buying action figures that I don't need. I mean, we're moving, and I have probably 12 large tubs of action figures because I open them and set them around for a while until I'm like “Why?” and then I throw it in this tub. While I've parted with a lot of things, if it's got a face I can't part with it. 3) Reading comic books in my pajamas all day if I'm left to my own devices. I'm basically a child. I'm a Will Ferrell character.
Personal
What would you be doing if you weren't working in legal? I really wish I'd tried to make a go of being a professional actor. I was much cuter in my twenties than I realized. I've seen pictures of myself and I was really cute. Why did I feel like a skinny nerd? That said, I remember my mother saying to me, and she didn't mean anything by it—it was the Seventies—I said, “I want to be a movie star.” She said, “Don't tell people that. They'll think you're weird.”
So I got into acting late in college. I was doing a feminist critique of Shakespeare, and the theater department was doing the Merchant of Venice. I'm like, I've been writing about Shakespeare, I should do something. That was the first play I did, and I loved it. I'm sure I was too awkward. I hadn't had enough life experience. If I’d tried to make a go of it in my twenties, I probably wouldn't have gotten anywhere. But I sometimes wish I had said, for three or four years in my twenties, I don't care if I starve to death, I'm gonna go try this just to have tried it.
The other thing that I would do now if they would let me, and I would do this as a side hustle—if someone let me have a weekly cabaret at kind of a weird, gay bar down the street, I would do that all day long, and I would get out all the sheet music my mother gave me, and I'd pull out all these old standards and do a Bette Midler show, and that would make me happy. No one would even need to pay me. As long as they don't mind me singing about 15 songs a night!
What work of art stays with you through the years, and why, or in what way? [Roy shared more than three complete answers to this question—and several incomplete answers!—during our conversation. For length and clarity, and with apologies to Roy, we chose to highlight one. –LMAF.]
There are particular movies of my youth, many of which are not regarded well, that have left lasting impressions on me and shaped my worldview.
That moment is how I've always wanted to live my life. You just did a number on me, but I'm still going to be nice to you.
Willy Wonka. We watched Willy Wonka the other day, and my husband said, “This didn't age well.” But he kept watching it, and he started laughing at things. He goes, “Why does Willy Wonka get so mean at the end?” And the he started talking over the movie, and I said, “This is the most important part.” It was when Charlie and Grandpa Joe stole the fizzy lifting drink. My husband goes, “Why did Charlie bring the gobstopper back?”
That moment is how I've always wanted to live my life. You just did a number on me, but I'm still going to be nice to you. And Charlie gives the gobstopper back. And then Willy Wonka says “You won!,” which is such a manipulation. It's a terribly manipulative film. But in that moment I want to be Charlie Bucket. I always want to be the one to go, “You're a jerk, but I'm going to show you. People can still be nice.” That's the critical moment of that film, and you've got to have all the other stuff to get to that. Gene Wilder, and Jack Albertson as Grandpa Joe. They are so good, excellent actors, and they're like, “We have one scene with some substance in this thing, and we're gonna act the crap out of it.” And I'm like, “That.” I want that in my time capsule, that scene.
What's your favorite word? The F word. I mean, if I'm being honest, the word I use the most is probably that. But the word that means the most to me is “kindness.” Not “nice,” but “kindness.”
So there's your gamut again. “From the F word to kindness with Roy Sexton.”
Bonus Question
LMAF invites every guest to answer one question they weren’t asked but wish they had been.
What do you wish more people knew about you? How do I say this? I'm not just Mr. Happy-Go-Lucky, make everybody feel good, smile all the time. I worry sometimes that people think I'm just a superficial good-citizen-of-the-year kind of person. I'm not.
You know, I try to be kind. I try to enjoy and have fun with people. And in that LMA [Legal Marketing Association] environment it's very easy to fall into “Gosh! I just want to engage with everybody and show them how much I appreciate them.”
I think sometimes I've done myself a disservice, because I think there are people who—this is going to sound harsh—who don't understand just because you're being nice, doesn't mean you don't have substance. And it doesn't mean you aren't critical. I'm plenty critical. I just choose not to lead with that. I think a lot of small-minded people lead with critique. They poke at things, and they say everything that's wrong and “Why couldn't this be better?” because they don't know what else to do. And then especially in our industry, they look at somebody like me, and they're like, “Oh, Roy's not substantive enough.”
Now, I don’t know that that’s true. That's probably my own hang-up. But I get that vibe from certain personalities sometimes. And I want to shake them and go “No, I see the same things you do. I just have the good sense not to lead with that.”
Click here for photos and interview highlights.
